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这些算不算?


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  • 枫下茶话 / 社会政治 / 请教:哪个部门有权力给一个组织贴上Terrorist Organization的标签?国会?行政?法院?媒体?
    • 这个一定要几大党达成共识,譬如哈马斯,不能自由党在台上给保守党贴上恐怖组织标签,或保守党上台把自由党打成恐怖组织。 +1
      • 恐怖组织跟党派无关吧?主要看行为方式,有组织有计划的屠杀无辜平民、绑架无辜平民、攻击无辜平民,这就算恐怖组织了
        • 加拿大的proud boy被智忧党列为恐怖组织,人家连一个窗户都没打破,只是发了些左左认为的“极右纳粹种族分子“言论而已。 +4
          • 土豆肯定是过分了,动用国家紧急法的特权来对待公民,然后利用整个国家司法系统来惩罚公民。什么组织和个人,有能力对抗整个国家的立法和司法系统?我相信等他下台后,一定会遭到反噬的 +4
        • 这些算不算?


          :

          • I suggest that you pick one or two of those cases and look it out for details. I just had a read about the "Abu Shusha Massacre".
            • 希望你读的不要是被洗白的文章就好,因为以色列对这些事件进行了多年的洗白,但国内甚至国际上都有大量犹太学者反对以色列的做法,以色列国内政治犯很多。看看对卡车司机的报道,你就该知道颠倒黑白是多么容易。 +1
              • 以色列国内政治犯很多?请问出处。
                • 首先以色列有大量因为拒服兵役而入狱的政治犯/更多的是各种反对派学者被逼走/包括丢工作和受迫害/如果你多研究犹太知识分子的相关讨论/就会多了解这些情况 +1

                  Conscientious objectors who refuse to perform military service risk prosecution under Israeli military law. Many are jailed after receiving unfair summary trials in disciplinary hearings. Often conscientious objectors are repeatedly prosecuted and imprisoned.

                  如今以色列年轻人因为反对以色列独裁和对巴勒斯坦的占领而入狱的人越来越多,这些人几乎都是因为反对以色列对巴勒斯坦的入侵和迫害而入狱的。

                  In recent months, hundreds of thousands of Israelis have been marching for “democracy and equality” across the country, with many even saying they would refuse military service because of this government’s authoritarian trends.

                  “As young women and men about to be conscripted into Israeli military service, we say NO to dictatorship in Israel and in the Occupied Palestinian Territories. We hereby declare that we refuse to join the military, until democracy is secured for all who live within the jurisdiction of the Israeli government,” the statement said.

                  “Despite our six months of determined struggle for a genuine democracy that has been waged in the streets almost daily, the government continues to pursue its destructive agenda. We truly fear for our own future, and for the future of all who live here. In view of this, we have no choice but to take extreme measures and refuse to serve in the army. A government that destroys the judiciary is not a government that we can serve. An army that militarily occupies another people is not an army that we can join.”

                  ‘Youth Against Dictatorship’: Meet Israel’s new class of conscientious objectors

                  https://www.972mag.com/israel-refusers-youth-against-dictatorship/

    • 目前来说就是民主政府的一张嘴,智忧党匪首一句卡车司机是极右纳粹恐怖分子,和平示威参加者就被随意抓捕、封账号、开除工作,民主自由的灯塔国FBI要把反对割鸡鸡教育的家长归入恐怖分子一类。 +5
    • 应该有比较公认的定义,牛津字典比较权威,chatgpt也行。被人贴标签之后可以上告,发律师函之类的,如果胜诉可以洗白,如果败诉就坐实了。
    • 犹太人当年可是支持恐怖分子的,而且是靠恐怖袭击起家的,他们可是恩人照杀不误,给你看看他们当初的资料 +1

      During the period of Jewish struggle against the British military in Palestine, “terrorist” had a positive connotation. In the late 1940s, American newspapers ran an advertisement with the headline, “Letter to the Terrorists of Palestine,” wherein the Hollywood screenwriter Ben Hecht wrote, “My Brave Friends. You may not believe what I write you, for there is a lot of fertilizer in the air at the moment. The Jews of America are for you.”

      这封信是美国犹太人写给巴勒斯坦犹太恐怖分子的,这里的Terrorists of Palestine专指在巴勒斯坦的犹太恐怖分子,这些人通过刺杀来强迫西方接受犹太复国,甚至连他们的恩人也不放过,比如Folke Bernadotte。

      Folke Bernadotte(1895年1月2日 - 1948年9月17日),瑞典伯爵,红十字会会长,二战中从纳粹集中营中解救了3.1万人(包括约6000名犹太人),1945年4月14日,希姆莱通过他向西方求和,但被拒绝。战后他作为联合国巴勒斯坦专员,致力于公平的调解阿拉伯人和犹太人的纠纷,结果遭到以梅纳赫姆·贝京为首的犹太恐怖分子暗杀,策划刺杀他的恐怖分子后来成了以色列的总理!The killing was approved by the three-man 'center' of Lehi: Yitzhak Yezernitsky (the future Prime Minister of Israel Yitzhak Shamir), Nathan Friedmann (also called Natan Yellin-Mor) and Yisrael Eldad (also known as Scheib). A fourth leader, Emmanuel Strassberg (Hanegbi) was also suspected by the Israeli Prime Minister David Ben-Gurion of being part of the group that ordered the assassination. The assassination was planned by Lehi's Jerusalem operations chief, Yehoshua Zettler.

      还有英国男爵Walter Edward Guinness

      Walter Edward Guinness, 1st Baron Moyne, (29 March 1880 – 6 November 1944), was an Anglo-Irish politician and businessman. He served as the British minister of state in the Middle East until November 1944, when he was assassinated by the Jewish terrorist group Lehi. The assassination of Lord Moyne sent shock waves through Palestine and the rest of the world.

      他们当初甚至连丘吉尔都打算刺杀,因为能力不足才转而刺杀Walter Edward Guinness,要知道没有丘吉尔,欧洲犹太人早就在集中营死光了!

      "Really these acts by Lord Moyne were without meaning for us. They were useful only as propaganda, because they allowed us to explain to the people why we had killed him. What was important to us was that he symbolized the British Empire in Cairo. We weren't yet in a position to try to hit Churchill in London, so the logical second best was to hit Lord Moyne in Cairo."

      丘吉尔一直支持犹太人在巴勒斯坦建国,自称是Zionist,但在Walter Edward Guinness被刺杀后,他说了这样一番意味深长的话:

      “如果我们为复国主义的未来付出的努力只会产生一批与纳粹德国不相上下的新匪徒,那么像我这样的许多人将不得不重新考虑我们过去如此一贯和长期坚持的立场。”

      丘吉尔还指出,Walter Edward Guinness一直支持犹太人,是犹太人的朋友,居然也被犹太恐怖分子刺杀了!(He also added, "I can assure the House that the Jews in Palestine have rarely lost a better or more well-informed friend.")

      这些只是犹太恐怖分子的一小部分作为,他们更主要的作为是对巴勒斯坦很多村庄的种族清洗,那是另一个话题,有兴趣的人可以自行研究。

      • 呵呵,犹太人不准确,就是锡安主义
        • 说日本人侵略并屠杀过中国人,没错吧,但其实只是日本人中的日本军国主义分子而已,一个道理。何况现在我们谈巴以冲突,以色列就是犹太锡安人组成的国家。 +1
      • 无差别攻击平民的肯定是恐怖分子。 有选择地攻击军人和暗杀政要的,我持保留态度。 当然从被攻击方的角度, 贴上恐怖分子的标签是很便利的。 +1
        • 刺杀以上政要的是各国公认的恐怖分子团体Jewish terrorist group Lehi,这个称呼始终被国际广泛接受。屠杀平民的,看这里 +1


          :

          • #15719142@0 I got an impression that Aljazeera is not objective in the topics related to Israel.
            • 关于犹太恐怖分子的资料都不是出自Al Jazeera,而且你要是多研究一下相关问题,就知道以色列在这方面做了多少洗白工作,如果说双方都不客观,那以色列根本不是不客观的问题,而是刻意歪曲历史。 +1
              • 这种历史是洗不白的,也不用避讳。一个族群的强烈恐怖主义行为是可以被纠正的。这往往需要多方的妥协。
                • 以色列在媒体方面的实力太强大了/他们几十年已经把事情洗得一塌糊涂/不过确实能找到一些客观资料/因为犹太知识分子也有很多正直的人/桑德斯就是其中之一 +1



                  :


              • From what I read, Israel keeps archived documents of the so-called massacres. At least some massacre claims are based on those archives.
                • 现在国际公认以色列对巴勒斯坦村庄进行了种族清洗,最多只是屠杀人数的多少而已,以色列屠杀的人数确实没有希特勒多,但性质是一样的,希特勒当初也是先驱逐,到最后才开始屠杀。 +1
                  • 如果您说国际公认,请问“国际公认”的标准是什么? 我认为需要了解具体情况,对每个具体案子独立下结论 +1
                    • 好啊, 给你列举各国各组织对犹太恐怖分子的记录,保证你大开眼界! +1

                      Jewish terrorist group Lehi

                      首先,这个头号犹太恐怖组织自认是恐怖组织,承认他们发动恐怖袭击:

                      The group referred to its members as terrorists and admitted to having carried out terrorist attacks.

                      Arie Perliger, William L. Eubank, Middle Eastern Terrorism, 2006 p. 37: "Lehi viewed acts of terrorism as legitimate tools in the realization of the vision of the Jewish nation and a necessary condition for national liberation."

                      Jean E. Rosenfeld, Terrorism, Identity, and Legitimacy: The Four Waves Theory and Political Violence, 2010 p. 161 n. 7: 'Lehi ... was the last group to identify itself as a terrorist one'

                      其次,以下是英国解密资料中谈到犹太恐怖分子对英国构成的威胁,犹太恐怖分子不但在巴勒斯坦袭击英国,而且甚至到英国去活动,虽然英国一直是支持他们复国运动的,但他们怪英国做的不够,没有一边倒支持犹太人,居然也考虑了巴勒斯坦人民的利益,所以开始恐怖袭击英国人,包括刺杀英国男爵Walter Edward Guinness。

                      Recently declassified Security Service (MI5) records reveal, for the first time, the full extent of the threat that Zionist terrorism posed to British national security immediately after the Second World War. It is well established within the historical literature that after 1945 Britain faced violent campaigns by Jewish terrorist groups in the Mandate of Palestine. Hitherto unacknowledged in the historiography, however, is the fact that the threat of Zionist terrorism extended from Palestine to Britain itself.

                      还有,以下是大英百科全书对这个犹太恐怖组织的描述,提到这个组织为了袭击英国不惜与纳粹轴心国合作!

                      Extremely anti-British, the group repeatedly attacked British personnel in Palestine and even invited aid from the Axis powers. ...The group’s terrorist activities extended beyond Palestine: two members assassinated Lord Moyne, British minister of state in the Middle East, at Cairo (November 1944). Later the Stern Gang attacked airfields, railway yards, and other strategic installations in Palestine, usually with success, though at heavy loss in members killed or captured.

                      除了大名鼎鼎的Lehi,犹太人还有另一个恐怖组织叫Irgun,这个组织对阿拉伯人尤其恶毒,它们强调only active retaliation would deter the Arabs。它和Lehi一起制造了诸多恐怖袭击,它们也共同制造了 Deir Yassin massacre。Two of the operations for which the Irgun is best known are the bombing of the King David Hotel in Jerusalem on 22 July 1946 and the Deir Yassin massacre that killed at least 107 Palestinian Arab villagers, including women and children, carried out together with Lehi on 9 April 1948.

                      Irgun被以下群体公认为恐怖组织,包括联合国,英国和美国,包括《纽约时报》,还包括犹太团体Zionist Congress和Jewish Agency,不知道够不够?

                      The organization committed acts of terrorism against the British, whom it regarded as illegal occupiers, and against Arabs.In particular the Irgun was described as a terrorist organization by the United Nations, British, and United States governments; in media such as The New York Times newspaper;as well as by the Anglo-American Committee of Inquiry, the 1946 Zionist Congress and the Jewish Agency.

                      还有,以下是美国司法部图书馆的相关书籍,你看看它是怎么描述犹太恐怖分子团体的,它提到 犹太恐怖组织Irgun是offensive的,使用arbitrary violence against Arab populations. 而Lehi恐怖组织组织更是most violent and unrestrained terrorist organization of the modern era.

                      During this period of increasing hostilities between Arabs and Jews, the Irgun was formed upon the leadership of Vladimir Jabotinsky to assume an offensive terrorist strategy against the Arabs with apparently arbitrary violence against Arab populations. Another underground Jewish terrorist group, Lohamey Heruth Israel or Lehi, was formed under the leadership of Avraham Stern and came to be perceived by conventional eyes as the most violent and unrestrained terrorist organization of the modern era.

                      我不需要列举更多,以上没有一条资料出自阿拉伯国家,都是对以色列持友好态度的英美各国的记录。犹太恐怖分子为了攻击英国人,不惜跟轴心国勾结,你真心不觉得心寒?从纳粹集中营捞人的Folke Bernadotte伯爵的死又算什么呢?对恩人都如此,更不要说对阿拉伯人了。

                      这就是为什么自称犹太复国分子的丘吉尔最后会说出这样痛心的话:

                      如果我们对犹太复国主义的梦想在刺客的枪口下化为泡影,如果我们为复国主义的未来付出的努力只会产生一批与纳粹德国不相上下的新匪徒,那么像我这样的许多人将不得不重新考虑我们过去如此一贯和长期坚持的立场。(If our dreams for Zionism are to end in the smoke of assassins' pistols and our labours for its future to produce only a new set of gangsters worthy of Nazi Germany, many like myself will have to reconsider the position we have maintained so consistently and so long in the past. )

    • 邪恶轴心背书的 +1
    • 共产党任何部门都可以。